In the lead-up to Larry Poons’s exhibition Momentum at Yares Gallery, David Rhodes paid a visit to the painter at the studio he has occupied on Broadway, just south of Union Square, since 1975.
The abstract paintings of Moira Dryer (1957 1992) are due for critical reevaluation. Hopefully the two-part exhibition at Eleven Rivington, Moira Dryer Project, was just a beginning.
Here in Berlin, two timely exhibitions by Imi Knoebel present the artists long preoccupation with color and its material support.
Gesture has had a changing reception since Art Informel and Abstract Expressionism positioned it as a carrier of unmediated meaning at the middle of the 20th century. Once perceived as spontaneous, open and direct, gesture later became a sign of empty rhetoric: redundant, obsolete, and naïve.
Alois Riegl (1858 1905), an Austrian art historian, was a major figure in establishing the study of art history as an independent discipline. He was also highly influential in the development of late 19th century formalism. It is well documented that Greenbergian formalism, with its blinkered appreciation of mid-20th century painting and sculpture, has brought this way of looking into serious disrepute.
The central piece of this exhibition is a structure of five vertical and parallel planes, open at the sides and standing floor to ceiling. The sheets of board and window screen material form a structure that is ad hoc, but elegant and open at the sides like a thick, layered, section of wall
There is something that still surprises when an artist reacts to materials, sounds, or available images in a way that simply feels good or feels right; creating something different where everything is rationally believed to have been done before.
Hokusai Katsushika (1760 1849) said that all he had done before the age of 70 was not worth bothering with. He hoped for longevity in life in order to achieve something in his paintings; evidently he believed in the long haul.
What happens in a painting by Amy Sillman resonates with the struggle and discomfort of being a mortal, corporeal being.
So many years have passed since your new paintings at the Marlborough Gallery caught your friends and supporters off-guard. Among your embattled partisan crowd, Bill de Kooning was almost alone in supporting your change of direction; after all, like you, he did what he wanted to do, when he needed to do it.
On a visit to New York last November, I visited Carol Szymanski and Barry Schwabsky. On the walls of their apartment are many beautiful works, though the one that had me immediately walking over to take a closer look was a small gouache on paper. It was one of yours.
Over the decades of his career, Frank Stella has embraced an ever more expansive and inclusive exploration of painting as a spatial entity. Inasmuch as actual physical parts form shapes and surfaces to be painted, Stellas rich illusionistic mix has pushed composition outward from the wall, while retaining the idea of pictorialism in the use of pattern and gesture to create an anomalous fictive space on any given surface.
Among the films, photo-collages, and drawings in Gordon Matta-Clarks exhibition is a sculptural stone fragment of praying hands.
Collaborative woodcuts made on paper and mounted on canvas, sculptures, collages, and drawings from twins Gert & Uwe Tobias occupy the ground floor of the Whitechapel Gallery.
Jane Freilicher remains an important figure when considering the New York poets that emerged in the mid 20th century.
Jo Baer remains one of the foremost practitioners of Minimalism, having contributed to the movement many paintings and drawings, as well as writings that fueled the theoretical debates of the time.
During the months of March and April in both Barcelona and Madrid, the curatorial project Jugada a Tres Bandas proposes to galleries that they interrupt their usual schedule and invite independent curators to organize exhibitions that include non-gallery artists.
Andrea Büttners current solo exhibition, her third at the gallery, brings together works featured earlier this year at the National Museum of Wales in Cardiff and Museum Ludwig in Cologne.
For his first solo exhibition in New York, Evan Nesbit is showing at both spaces of Eleven Rivington. Comprising painting and sculpture, the exhibition is titled Porosity, which describes an aspect of Nesbit’s painting process, as well as, it could be said, the imaginative speculation undertaken to surmise what may structure the sculptures beneath their painted surface.
Comprising a survey of twelve paintings, this exhibition presents a thoughtful overview of Yun Hyong-keuns (1928 2007) quietly compelling work.
Three contrasting types of work comprise Lynda Benglis’ current exhibition at Cheim & Read. Standing alone in the gallery’s first room is a towering cast aluminum piece: The Fall Caught (2016), a vaguely anthropomorphic form leaning against a wall, large enough to stand beneath.
For this exhibition Parc Natural at Galeria Trama, curator Frederic Montornés returns to the writer Georges Perec’s book Espèces d’espaces (Species of Spaces) (1974) that he freely interpreted for his 2015 MACBA (Museu d’Art Contemporani de Barcelona) exhibition in 2015.
Jack Whitten’s first exhibition with Hauser & Wirth presents works from several series—“Quantum Walls”, “Portals”, lenticular works from the “Third Entity”, one piece from the continuing Black Monolith Project, and a sculpture (all dated 2015 – 17)—continuing a five-decade-long investigation of passions vis-à-vis a testing exploration of painting itself.
With an intense emphasis on color, the multi-tiered, often column-like structures achieve a fresh synthesis of painting and sculpture. This is more than it may at first seem: Shechet has long been interested in ideas from the West and the Eastboth Freudian psychoanalysis and Buddhist teachinga practice that allows for the invention she excels at to encompass non-formal factors, or rather to integrate idea, desire, and process.
Something seems to have changed between Ann Cravens last Karma exhibition in 2018 and Animals Birds Flowers Moons, the current exhibition. Individual works now advance a particularly estranging form of romanticism with even more boldness and adventure than before.
In an excellent 2008 review in Gay City News, the late painter Stephen Mueller described Jackie Saccoccio as proceeding to disrupt the picture plane either by continually contradicting space or by defining it. In her current work, Saccoccio continues to punch holes in the picture plane, with pleasure.
For Graham Collins’s second solo exhibition at the Journal Gallery, several different series of works are combined, including large-scale painted objects that effectively reconfigure the gallery’s main space.
To inaugurate its new Chelsea space, Lisson, one of London’s most significant and established galleries, presents works created over the past two years by the painter Carmen Herrera.
Change and reconfiguration are core issues for Kher, and her practice is heterogeneous, reiterating the significance of flux and transformation in her works.
Reflector comprises five, large-scale oil-on-linen paintings. They are variously shaped, and consist of two interrelated parts, like bodies embracing whilst moving through space, easily bringing to mind an improvised dancefigures in motion, relating, communicating, combining.
Varda Caivano and Yael Davidss two-person exhibition opened during Berlins hectic Gallery Weekend, and despite the profusion of new shows in the city, this proved to be the one not to miss.
After presentations in Europe (at the Ecole Supérieure des Beaux Arts du Mans (1999) in Locarno, and at the Villa Arson de Nice (2004)), the present iteration of this exhibition, organized by Jean Louis-Raymond, coincides with the first U.S. complete retrospective of Straub and Huillet’s filmmaking, at MoMA. Comprising an original film poster, mounted photographs, writings, and video, the exhibition raises an interesting question: Does this amount to documentation?
This exhibition brings together fourteen oil paintings by David Reed first collectively shown in 1975 in a solo exhibition at Susan Caldwell Gallery.
One very good reason, amongst others, to visit is to take the opportunity to see George Ortmans (19262015) works not solely through the lens of minimalismone view that has become habitualbut rather, to think about how Judd and Ortman relate historically, and contrast aesthetically.
Frank Badur has been part of the Berlin scene from the time he studied here, between 1963 and 1969. He became a professor at the University of Art in 1985, and, like many other German artists who maintain successful international careers, he has continued to teach.
Before becoming one of the most eminent abstract painters of her generation, Mary Heilmann arrived in New York as a sculptor in 1968. Exploring Pearl Paints, a short distance from her Chinatown loft, (Barnett Newman among many others had bought supplies at the famed, now-shuttered retailer), Heilmann initially decided against using the wide range of pigments on offer, avoiding what she referred to as “pretty” color and working in a restricted palette of earth tones and white. In 1974, however, her art underwent a substantial shift.
Entering the gallery and leaving behind the traffic noise of a busy weekday Grand Street, I found summertime to be successfully, if disconcertingly and humorously, evoked. Summer, curated by the artist Ugo Rondinone, brought together seven intergenerational artists whose works relate at varying tangents to this apparently straightforward seasonal idea.
Josef Alberss (1888 1976) artwork, while concise in nature, allows complexity to reveal itself with prolonged looking. What is initially declared through simple meanssome lines or a few colorsis free of graphic stasis. Nothing in an Albers stays still.
Moira Dryers third exhibition with this gallerytwo previous exhibitions organized by gallery partner Augusto Arbizo took place in 2014 and 2016comprises twelve paintings and nine works on paper.
As the source of the Berlin-based Norwegian artist Øystein Aassans second solo exhibition at PSM Gallery, a quote from Barnett Newman is cited: The painting should give man a sense of place: that he knows hes there, because in that sense I was there. Aasan achieves this sense of place through a very literal emphasis on making and context.
Facing the large gallery windows that open onto Grand Street, four white organic pillow-like shapes hang on a free-standing floor to ceiling wall; one in each corner. The title of this piece is Vier Körperformen (1963). A small, framed drawing to the right of this wall, Körperformen (1963), shows the outline of five similar shapes.
In Joe Fyfes work, the inherent characteristics of any given material are presented foremost and combined with a sense of highly nuanced formal invention. Materials and objects are sewn, glued, tied, or left leaning together; there is no idealization or neutral ground sought for paintingand painting and its possibilities is the subject of this exhibitionas medium specific.
These thirteen works expand the possibilities for painting or abstraction, even as we understand those terms today.
When Stefan Wolpe (1902-1972) began Battle Piece in 1942, it was to have been the first of a series of works for solo piano titled Encouragements, intended as a composers contribution to the struggle against Fascism; part of the genre Kampfmusik that had earlier included chamber operas, theatre music, and agitprop songs. The composition not only addressed the social and political struggles of the day, but also a desire to transform disparate musical idioms into a subjective communication of personal experience.
German Stegmaier makes oil paintings and graphite drawings; he sits well within tradition and displays no desire to work with new or novel materials. He often presents his work in groups, clustered and unaligned.
In using her body as both the image and site of her work, Aneta Grzeszykowska continues the dialogue and tradition of such artists as Cindy Sherman, Hannah Wilke, Ana Mendieta, and, most obviously in this exhibition, Alina Szapocznikowanother Polish sculptor whose work traffics in bodily fragmentation.
As well as printmaking, Danish artist Per Kirkeby’s (b. 1938) oeuvre includes painting, sculpture, architecture, writing (poetry, essays, and travel books), and performance.
Two concurrent exhibitions in New York this fall refer to natural and cultural forms in poetic installations with entirely different, conceptually framed takes. Both use painting as intellectual and physical currency, and both excerpt works of literature in their press releases. Chris Ofili cites John Milton’s epic poem Paradise Lost. For Sam Falls, the relevant citation comes from Vladimir Nabokov’s novel The Gift: “A jail with no jailer and a garden with no gardener—that is I think the ideal arrangement.”
Here is a chance to walk through an entire strand of Ellsworth Kellys long and productive careernot yet definitive, because (at 88) he is still adding to it.
As the poet John Ashbery once said: “Most reckless things are beautiful in some way, and recklessness is what makes experimental art beautiful, just as religions are beautiful because of the strong possibilities that they are founded on nothing.”
This is Pierre Obandos first solo exhibition with the gallery. The title of his exhibition is taken from Roy Lichtensteins painting Like New, which is an atypical work for Lichtenstein and a telling choice for Obando.
One enters Tamara Zahaykevichs exhibition on a small ramp that leads down to a set of differently sized rooms. It is a dynamic space and requires a thoughtfulness that is repaid: encountering these interconnected rooms, one is encouraged to take stock of their relational qualities and the particular proportion of each room to its neighbor.
Two walls, both hung with drawings, face each other. One, shorter in length, was custom-built for this exhibition. They are painted a pale green, not a found green but one mixed by the artist and then matched to a Pantone color in the paint store and applied to the walls by gallery assistants. At the far end of the gallery, a row of windows open onto buildings across the street and a tree in the full green leaf of early summer.
Identification between body and things is of central importance to Mark di Suvero’s sculpture and other works.
Mira Schendel was born Myra Dagma Dub in 1919. A Jew by birth, Schendel’s mother had her daughter baptized at the Church of St Peter and Paul, raising her in Milan as a Roman Catholic where she studied art and philosophy.
a “Rose is a rose is a rose is a rose,” as Gertrude Stein once said. It is particular, not necessarily singular: Ann Craven’s repeated motifs of flowers, moons, sunsets, or birds typically extend an accessible image into multiplicity without undermining the exceptional character contained in each image produced.
A mobile is characterized by balance and movement; various parts are able to randomly reorganize themselves in response to touch or to currents of surrounding air. This simple device, in effect a kinetic sculpture, is also familiar as a childrens toy and a store window display.
Galerie Johann König is a short walk from Potsdamer Strasse, a new neighborhood for the Berlin gallery scene now long decentred from the original art district of Berlin Mitte. What once formed a haven of cheap, available space after the fall of the Wall in 1989 has now become a chic and increasingly expensive neighborhood for the incoming wealthy of former West Germany.
The National Exemplar has a distinct program that focuses on artists of different generations, as well as on bodies of work that may have been overlooked relative to an artists’ better-known works.
Martha Diamond’s exhibition at Magenta Plains presents paintings from the 1980s; on view are large canvases in oil at street level and, downstairs, small painted studies on Masonite.
Dan Walshs exhibition at Paula Coopers 21st Street gallery presents a two-decade overview (1994 2014) that includes paintings, works on paper, mixed media pieces, and artist books.
The subject of Robert Ryman’s work is the relationship between light and matter; in particular, the relationship between a changing light and a specific surface.
Curator Saskia Spender, Gorky’s granddaughter, has installed over fifty landscapes, including paintings and works on paper from 1943 to 1947.
This exhibition of paintings and drawings marks a bold and confident change in the working methods of Keltie Ferris. A significant departure has been made from the characteristically fuzzy and pixelated images taken and transformed from screens present in previous paintings.
Despite the undeniably heroic scale and boldness, the paintings have as much to do with self-effacement in the circumstance of unknown experience as an adventure or foil, a falling into form and a finding of balance however precarious, or transitory.
This exhibition, comprising ten paintings and two works on paper culled from several private collections, affords viewers the rare, if not unique, opportunity to apprise Al Helds Alphabet paintings, made between 1961 and 1967 andthought by many in this city to be his finest work.
When Günther Förgs monochrome paintings first appeared during the mid-1970s, they seemed to be, at least in part, a rejection of the expressionist and figurative tendencies of Das Neue Wilden (The New Wild) German painting emerging during those years.
This pairing of drawings by Roland Flexner with bronze vessels from the Edo period is both beautiful and thought provokingso much pleasure and intellectual acuity, combined in an exhibition of real depth.
The fourteen works present heremostly on panel, but also including five detached frescoesare brought together for the first time, at the Palazzo Real. They provide a partial, but representative, record of Giotto Di Bondone’s (1267 1337) production over a more than forty-year periodfrom early to late in his hugely influential career.
This sparingly hung exhibition, including over seventy works, is the largest gathering to-date of Connecticut born artist Maureen Gallace’s (b. 1960) small-scale paintings. While it is easy to see precedents for these paintings—Fairfield Porter, Jane Freilicher, Lois Dodd, and Alex Katz—the paintings are distinctly singular; in a genre tradition, but certainly not generic.
Beverly Fishman’s high gloss surfaces have an inscrutable beauty. The shape and color of each work looks both estranging and familiar, and whilst the combinations of sometimes acidic or synthetic color entrance, they do not comfort.
Incrediblygiven the quality of the paintingsthis is Robert Duran's first showing in New York City since 1977. The exhibition, comprising seven acrylic on canvas and eleven watercolor on paper paintings from 1968 to 1970, locates Duran's work at a particularly divisive moment for contemporary art in general and painting in particular.
In a pamphlet accompanying Adolph Gottliebs 1954 retrospective, Clement Greenberg wrote, Picasso, of all people, was struck by Gottliebs pictures when he saw them in reproduction, said so, and incorporated them in his big Kitchen painting.
In late 1950s Brazil, amid cultural, social, and economic upheaval, changes were registered by new forms of literature, music, and visual art. In visual art, Neoconcretismo combined geometry with sensuality and expressiveness, absorbing examples of the Bauhaus and European modernism.
Two Berlin-oriented exhibitions at the Martin-Gropius-Bau seek to reevaluate the influence of Charles-Édouard Jeanneret, known as Le Corbusier (1887-1965), on the contemporary built environment and its social consequences. This is the most extensive presentation of the Swiss architects wide-ranging work in over twenty years.
Adrian Schiess and Helmut Dorner have a shared perspective on painting, occupying an extreme position on the medium. They are emphatically painters: their concerns are not descriptive or iconographic.
This is the Pakistani-born, London-raised, and Berlin-based artists third solo exhibition with Esther Schipper, and the first at the gallerys new location on Schöneberger Ufer. Again, Ceal Floyers simple and direct strategy of inversion and displacement make for a subtle encounter of surprise, absurdity, and wit.
Carol Ramas first exhibition was shut down by the police, who removed her paintings from the gallery. Some of the overtly sexual watercolors on display included images of men having sex with dogs and women excreting snakes.
For this artists second solo exhibition at Blackston, the walls and ceiling of the front gallery have been painted gray, and the difference this makes in how one experiences the five large-scale paintings that explore the tonal shifts of the complex hue is significant.
In 1981, when Milton Resnick was 64, he bought 140, 40” by 30” impregnated, wax, corrugated boards. He had recently completed the large-scale Planets, Elephants and Straws in the Wind series. Each painting took as much as several months to finish and was up to seventeen feet in length.
John Armleders second exhibition at David Kordansky is an enveloping experience, and whilst it is true to say that questions are asked of paintings art historical legacy, the effects of chance and playfulness guarantee an altogether immediate, and pleasurable, involvement for the viewer.
Viewers familiar with Walshs work will no doubt recognize the strategy of built images, each part, part of a generative process extending across a paintings surface or, a sculptures three dimensionsnevertheless, the deadpan permutations are not strictly programmatic, and invite the viewer to participate in an intellectual and retinal exploration of how exactly these images come to be.
Just for now, I would rather stay at street level and save a walk up the staircase at 45 East 78th Street for another visit. Not since Dorothy Millers 1959 Sixteen Americans exhibition at MoMA has a group of Frank Stellas Black Paintings been shown together like thisand here they are, installed on the ground floor of L&Ms plush town house.
In the first room of Sylvia Plimack Mangold’s exhibition, the visitor encounters the summer section of the exhibition’s title. Later, on moving through to the second room, the winter section. The cyclical progression of the seasons defines the rhythm of life in a climate that sees weather changing through the months, as well as vegetal and animal response. It’s impossible not to think concurrently of mortality and a celebration or acknowledgement of transformation.
A&E Sessions at Hauser and Wirth comprises works made as a result of Paul McCarthys multi-disciplinary project A&E, which was produced by the artist during improvisatory performances involving him and the Berlin-born German actor Lilith Stangenberg.
This exhibition, although a midcareer retrospectiveMehretu is far from done yetgathers an impressive corpus of works. It arrived at the Whitney Museum of American Art in New York after iterations at the Los Angeles County Museum of Art and Atlantas High Museum of Art. The Walker Art Center in Minneapolis will be the final venue this coming fall.
Exhibitions dealing, in their very different ways, with 21st century abstraction opened in the first half of September here in Berlin. Nymphius Projektee presents a small survey of painting, hung salon-style, which looks at some conceptual and geometric tendencies in 1980s abstraction that still underpin much abstract painting today.
Since the mid 1960s, Robert Mangold has consistently examined the possibilities of support shape, surface, color, and drawing, in dynamic and equal relation. This exhibition of recent work is no exception.
Hans Hartung (1904–1989) was born in Leipzig, Germany, into a family where paintings and music were always present. He was the son and grandson of physicians: his father involved in pharmaceutical research. Young Hans had a thing about lightning; he was captivated by the effects of energy as light, shadow, and space—sketchbooks filled with drawings of thunderbolts were known to his family as Hans’s Blitzbücker (Books of Lightning).
The kinesthetic relationship viewers encounter with painting has long been a preoccupation for David Novros.
Cordy Ryman has long made a practice of installing works to suit the context of a specific gallery space, and his current exhibition at Freight + Volume is no different.
Entering an Adrian Schiess exhibition is not a passive experience, and his current show at FRAC in Marseille is no exception. Spread out over two floors, Schiess has installed individual pieces on nearly every surface, be it hanging on or leaning against the wall, or lying flat on the floor.
This is Plagen’s best show to date, with works that indicate an ongoing achievement after decades of work, which thematically returns to the same question of how a presumed incompatibility of styles can co-exist in the same painting.
In this third solo exhibition at the gallery, Philip Taaffe continues to pursue an elegant and precise aggregate of images and technique.
This particular group of works presenting a constellation of relations as if staged for the duration of this particular presentation.
German polymath Friedrich Schiller (1759-1805) coined the term Spieltrieb in response to Immanuel Kant’s (1724-1804) text The Critique of Judgment.
In both the drawings and the paintings, that process of becoming through painting, using temporality as structurenot descriptive imagesevinces Tworkovs remarkable achievement and his path toward Nirvana.
Rockenschaub’s work cannot be easily categorized. Playful and engaged with the world and its technologies as it is, it also has a formal exactitude that deploys abstraction’s constructivist history as much as the potential of architectural intervention.
The exhibition is curated by the artist Matt Connors, and comprises 29 vintage prints together with archival material, handmade exhibition invitations, books, commercial work, presented in vitrines. The title of the exhibition is taken from a text by Ghirris widow, Paola Ghirri, in which she describes his attitude to not only printingeach print is handmade and uniquebut also to his construction of images and fascination with hand-built objects. The photographs, usually taken frontally, have often been taken for montages, when in fact the various parts of the composition existed in place out in the world already, and are simply framed by Ghirri using the photographs own rectangular limit.
In a 2002 interview with Judith Stein, the curator of Deadeye Dick: Richard Bellamy and His Circle and author of the recent, definitive Richard Bellamy biography, Eye of the Sixties: Richard Bellamy and the Transformation of Modern Art, Richard Tuttle said, “Dick was unbelievably sensitive, delicate and extremely refined. But he was strong—the strongest part of him was his belief in following his own way with art.”
The Serpentine exhibition is extraordinary. This show highlights Oehlens ongoing engagement with both the Rothko Chapel in Houston, Texas and the Kiev-born American artist John D. Graham s painting Tramonto Spaventoso (Terrifying Sunset) from 194049. In the high-vaulted central gallery space of the Serpentine Galleryaround which smaller adjoining spaces provide views out onto the parkare a group of canvases scaled to match Rothkos horizontal paintings in the Houston chapel.
This is Will Rymans first New York gallery exhibition in five years, and his first with CHART. Formerly a playwright, Ryman applies a particular kind of philosophical and formal enquiry, rooted in his interest in the Theatre of the Absurd, to sculpture. From this basis Ryman seeks to examine and explore, with humor as well as seriousness, our existential search for meaning in a clearly indifferent, at best contingent, world.
Toronto-born and South Bronx-based Mike Childs has been working in New York since 1995. In this exhibition, 28 paintings from the last 16 years are presented, revealing a constant and evolving exploration of how humans negotiate their surrounding modularly built, urban environment. Patterns and contiguous space interface, interlace, and proliferate like so many passing surfaces and colors, changing with the passage of time or the panorama of a gaze. Walls, graffiti, signage, and bridges of the Bronx all began to fold into the flux of Childss images during his time living in the neighborhood.
The group of paintings that comprise Helmut Federles fifth solo exhibition at Peter Blum Gallery originate in a work made in New York City in 1979 after moving from Basel, Switzerland. He would stay in New York City, with some interruptions for four years.
Nonchalance and elegance, speed and subtlety, all come together in Janitz’s work.
The paintings in color and surface recall the American West, not as landscape painting, but as abstractions of light, heat, and surface.
An exhibition of work by Matti Braun, the Berlin-born, Cologne-based artist, is always something to which one looks forward. At BQ, Braun has made a show that speaks for itself more than just visually, extending any singular interpretation of the works with the simple device of an exhibition title.
Painting is but one option among many for Richard Aldrich, his abstract paintings being just the most familiar, as can be seen in this latest exhibition at Bortolami, his fourth at the gallery.
They are somewhat akin to drawings by children: unfussy, direct, energized, inventive. The paintings are strikingly bold. Configurations of disjunctive color and pattern dont so much settle as insist on taking the viewer for yet another go around. Somehow this is never finished; the viewer is caught in a process, not of resolution but of constant change.
Wyatt Kahns wall-based works evade some old categories and challenge a few new ones.
Casa Malaparte, a house built for, and partially designed by, Italian writer Curzio Malaparte in the late 1930s, is situated on Punta Massullo, a rocky outcrop on the eastern side of Capri.
I think that here are some surprising common aspects of making art, and writing about it, in handling paint and in handling words. For me this is because both are as much about finding as about doing. The act of doing is always generative whether it is obvious or not, to the point where it is often the most interesting aspect of either.